Ben Stein’s new documentary “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed” hits select cities nationwide tomorrow. You can watch the trailer below.
But come on now…
When will they stop trying to force feed us their brand of religion? How long do we have to put up with this? Don’t they know that we’re trying to live our own lives here? That we’re sick and tired of their invasion into our privacy? Telling us what to believe and and how to believe it? Trying to comprise our public schools and universities with their doctrines? With things that can not be proven? That require faith to believe in? Give me a break. I believe those are called theories–not facts as they would say.
How can they be so close minded?
How can they can they be so narrow?
This is downright offensive. It shouldn’t be allowed to even be entertained.
But then again, this is their religion, after all. I’ve got to cut them some slack. I’m not just attacking their scientific opinions on the cause and purpose of life–if it can even be considered science–I’m actually attacking their belief system. Their religion. Their faith on why things are the way they are. And that’s deep rooted stuff.
So no wonder this subject stirs such a debate. It’s no longer scientific; it’s a clash of belief systems. Last I knew, this sort of cataclysmic collision pitted nations and families against one another for centuries. And apparently, it still does.
“Christianity has fought, still fights, and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus’ earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of god. Take away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer that died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing.â€
G. Richard Bozarth , “The Meaning of Evolutionâ€, American Atheist, 20 Sept. 1979, p. 30
So true, Mr. Bozarth. But if this could be true, then the converse could also true. If evolution is wrong, than it proves God is real, Jesus’ sacrifice is the only means for salvation, and consequently, makes all of mankind accountable for their own sin.
No wonder mankind doesn’t want Intelligent Design to be real: It would prove that not only God is real, but as Mr. Bozarth implied, that we are in need of His mercy through Jesus Christ.
My comments at the top were not about Jesus Believers, they were about Evolutionary Believers. Because we’re all believers in something.
To some, Science is god; to me, the God of science is. It’s just so much more logical and requires a whole lot less, well, faith.
Thanks for reading.
CH
Do you think that it’s important to Christianity to believe that God created the earth without using evolution?
And do you really think that the creation portion really has a lot to do with salvation? Isn’t it enough to know that we’re messed up people and that we need Jesus REGARDLESS of how we got here?
I think that Mr. Bozarth isn’t right. I don’t think that you need Adam & Eve & the garden to realize that we sin, that our world is in need of a saviour. Most people have a moral compass, and I think that’s something of the God Part of us, and has very little to do with the original fall. But maybe I’m wrong.
I guess I just don’t see why evolution and Intelligent Design have to be so completely exclusive. Isn’t God a big enough God to use evolution? (I’m not saying that this is what I believe. For the record, I think that God created somehow, if it took 7 physical, actual days, or 7 God days, that doesn’t matter to me – we were built with a purpose and a reason, and not just by some random stuff colliding in space)
Also: I’m not trying to stir stuff up, so if you think that this comment is going to cause problems (ie. fighting and stuff on your blog) please erase it – I don’t want to be the cause of all that. I just wanted a little bit of discussion (that doesn’t include things like diapers and formula – ha ha ha!!!).
Kait: No, I would never delete your comments! You’re always welcome here, and your ideas are certainly stimulating. I’m up against a deadline so I’ll get back to you in a few. Hope people dialog on this. I have some Biblical thoughts I’ll share later. Thanks for posting!
CH
How funny is it, that I was watching Nova today and it was talking about galactic formation. It went on to talk about the Big Bang, then to commercial. The commercial we a professor in the class speaking about evolution… And, Ben Stein in the back of the class. It was an ad for Expelled.
I thought, what timing
As far as Theistic Evolution. I have wrestled around with this one myself. I have questions though, just to consider. If evolution were the case, at what point does man become endowed with the spirit of God. At what point do we go from a perfect Creation to a fallen one?
Also, if one takes the Bible as literal, Genesis is clear that the account is of a 7 literal day Creation. Why? Because each day of Creation ends with “And the Morning and the Evening were __ Day.”
Also, within the story of Creation (3:15) is the first Messianic prophecy.
If God is big enough to use Evolution, is He not even bigger, infinitely more powerful to speak into being all life within 7 days?
Let us agree to this, no matter what, we all agree Life has meaning and purpose, it is not random acts of natural processes. In the end whether Theistic Evolution or Creation, we believe that we are God’s workmanship.
Kait:
Just my thoughts here in response to your comments. And thanks for posing some intelligent thoughts of your own.
Yes, I do think it’s imperative to the Gospel, and salvation, that God did not use evolution, especially as it pertains to the mankind. I will not rule out adaptation, as my body has certainly adapted to the winters of northern NY and really has a hard time adjusting to heat. However, intelligent design with intentional and deliberate action versus evolution’s drawn out, haphazard and accidental development of life directly speaks to God’s intent and creative abilities (or complete lack thereof). The fact that we are made, in a moment of conception, in His image (Gen. 1:26-27), not evolving into something that loosely resembles Him, has everything to do with intent, and this is key: to have a relationship with His creation, not to examine it like mold in a petri dish. God made Adam because He wanted to be with him, to walk with him in the cool of the day (Gen. 3:8). Relationship.
To dismiss how we got here is to dismiss God’s intent for creating us, as I said before. If His intent was to have relationship with us, then the motive for sending His Son to ransom us from death is clear: to restore that relationship. If the motive was simply to create life for the sake of watching it evolve devoid of genuine concern for it, regardless of any sinful nature, makes His reasoning for sacrificing His Son irrelevant.
I disagree with you about Adam & Eva and the garden. First off, the Bible is clear that sin entered the world through Adam. Without Adam, there would be no need for Jesus’ death and resurrection (and I can confidently say that, both from an Armenian and a Calvinistic perspective). A solid study of Romans 5 is clear on this, specifically verses 12-15, below:
“12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
“15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!”
Evolution is more than just an attack on the origin of salvation and the intent of creation, it is an attack on the nature of God.
Jeremy:
Likewise, Theistic Evolution, assuming God used Evolution to accomplish the creation of Adam, needs to answer the question assumed above: why would God want mankind to evolve over 10 million years when His whole intent was to have a relationship with Him? This seems extremely shallow, and quite honestly, stupid, at least as far as God is concerned.
I have to believe that God was more interested in getting to the point of having friendship with Adam than playing with primordial soup, don’t you? If not, than He seems pretty sidetracked with the frivolous, and that is quite contrary to everything I read of Him in scripture.
That’s really ironic about the Nova special being followed by the Expelled commercial! Tell me God doesn’t have a sense of humor!
Blessings on you both for writing in! I welcome your comments back.
CH
I’m not sure what I think about the whole issue. I definitely favor creation, and on purely scientific grounds alone reject evolution.
Excuse me, Evolution… evolution as in micro-evolution, is perfectly scientific.
Mr. Hopper –
One quick side note – about the Adam and Eve thing? Remember, God gave humans CHOICE. I think that that is what the Earth was founded on, and I think that it has a part, a large part, in WHY we were created. To get to the point, even if Adam hadn’t sinned, which he had the choice not to, then someone down the line would have. So Adam isn’t necessarily imperative, although he is the one who originated it.
Anyway, about evolution, I read somewhere that some guy calculated that the Big Bang theory forming everything so perfecty was one in several trillion, maybe more. So scientists really must have faith to believe that. Not only that, but in trying to disprove God, they accept that the universe is doomed to destruction in a few billion years, and that their existence is hopeless and pointless. I can only help but wonder why they would try so hard to maintain that conclusion. And with evolution, having a bit more knowledge of it now than I used to, I simply refuse to call a rock my great great great great….grandfather.
You know, I saw something on a video in science class a while ago….here’s the theory that scientists have: “And the first organisms IN THE WORLD were tiny amoeba. They ate OTHER ORGANISMS.” So apparently, the first organisms in the world ate some other organisms that couldn’t REALLY have existed. I think science in that department is going in circles.
Sorry..in the first paragraph of my above comment, I meant that Adam himself sinning wasn’t necessarily imperative.
Shane: Could you please clarify? I think I lost your thought flow on the statement when it got broken up.
Ian: Thanks for chiming in with the thoughts.
Regarding the topic of Adam: I completely agree that we (Adam) were given the ability to choose and “if it wasn’t Adam it would have been someone else.” (This is where a Calvinist would disagree, saying Adam was destined to by God so Jesus might be revealed). Although I will say, from a personal point of view, I find it interesting that through the FIRST man sin entered the world. Would it have been differently if it was the second man? (And thus the premise for Rise of The Dibor!).
My point was more in answering Kait when she asked why is salvation so directly linked to the presence or lack thereof of Adam by Christians? I was implying that we had to have a first man for sin to come in; whether that was an evolved man or a created man becomes key when we look at God’s intent for creating man: fellowship necessitates a more immediate presence whereas a God not interested in a relationship would be fine with a few million years of amoeba like evolutionary silence. Adam’s presence directly speaks of the Father’s heart; pointless to atheists, but critical for the Christian.
I like your points on the “other organisms” that were food. (I wonder if they had amoeba fast food back then? Would have made this whole argument a whole lot easier).
CH
Sorry about that. I just forgot a capital in a place where it can sometimes change the meaning. With a capital in it, it is usually is referring to the theory. Lowercase it can mean changes within kinds. It’s always confused me. In short, I had said that I don’t believe in evolution when I meant to say I don’t believe in Evolution.
Well that was my intention anyways… Now I’m trying to remember if it’s actually true. (The capital thing, not Evolution.)
In regards to Adam and Eve, I see no particular reason to reject their having been real people. Somebody’s got to be first. The part that confuses me a bit is when did Lucifer fall? Perhaps it’s not meant for me to know, but it’s like he just shows up in chapter three…
-Shane
Shane: Thanks for the clarification; got it now.
As to when Lucifer fell, and this is just my understanding–a theologian could be much more accurate–we don’t really know the time line. But it is generally understood that it happened pre-creation of mankind, sometime during eternity past. Satan’s fall from heaven is described in Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-15. Revelation 12:4 indicates that Satan took one-third of the angels with him when he sinned. Much more than that, we don’t know, and I can only assume, we don’t need to know.
But great question!
CH
Jeremy – I whole-heartedly agree, with all of it!
Chris – I’m mostly undecided about the creation thing. I think that it’s most likely that God created exactly according to the Genesis account. If someone asked me how I thought the world came to be, Genesis is what would come out of my mouth. I suppose that I just speculate far too much about it. I guess that I’m trying to say that if I get to Heaven and find out that the Earth is really old like the Evolutionists say, I wouldn’t be surprised and if I found out that it was literally done in 7 days and is fairly new, I wouldn’t be surprised either.
Also, I’m sure that I don’t really know all that much about Evolution to really argue for or against it. I didn’t even think of the part where we would become sentient, God-reflecting beings. That’s a really good point.
As for whether Adam was necessary, I suppose that I was trying to say that sin was bound to happen (IMO). It didn’t take a true garden of Eden, with a man named Adam to start it all. That is how it happened, but it didn’t need to happen that way. I suppose that I was trying to say that if I was just to look at myself, my surrounding, and not look to the Bible, I would still be able to say that humanity was in a sorry state and needed someone to help us.
I think after further thought, I can agree to say that if we evolved from monkeys, the part where we become like God to have a relationship and the part where sin entered the world would become fuzzy, and therefore the reason for Christ and salvation would become unknown.
Sometimes I like to throw ideas out there to see how they sound, and usually someone’s able to say “that’s a crap idea because of this…” or whatever. I figure then I’m less likely to convince myself of something untrue if people contest it
Sorry to stray away from the above conversation, but I did get a chance to go see “Expelled” this past weekend and I just wanted to comment and say what an incredible documentary it was. And without uncovering any of the details, I encourage anyone who didn’t make it to the theaters this past weekend to see it as soon as possible.
Inspiring, thought-provoking, and controversial.
Thanks for the post Christopher!
wow. what a topic. I have entirely too many opinions to post here, but I will leave a few thoughts, some of which have already been mentioned.
1) Theistic Evolution. There are many arguments against this, some have been mentioned. I believe in the six days of creation. why? because if I have to tell myself that he couldn’t do it in six literal days, God is not omnipotent (power without limit), and he is therefore not God.
2) Two questions I asked my 4th grade science teacher Mr. Rutland, to which I still have not found an answer. “If all varieties of apple trees have to be cross pollinated, how could the species survive if there had to be a first then a second? did they evolve at the exact same time in the exact same place?”
3)Adam and Eve: Wow do they get a bum wrap. The first time they chose self before God, and all mankind is tainted in a Volume that has been published MILLIONS of times over. We choose self almost every day and look the other direction because “no one knows.” What if our mistakes were logged in a book for everyone to see? oh right, they are. he knows every deed and we will give account for them. (exception: see Blood of the Lamb, crucified BEFORE the foundation of the world)
peace,
- mooney
This is such a great FLOG post!
Thanks CH and all the posters for keeping it going.
I had an interesting conversation with a close friend last week about “God’s perfect will” and “free will”, and whether or not our lives are pre-determined, which would negate “free will”. Needless to say, it was a heavy conversation, but reading this post and comments brought up some of the similar threads of that conversation.
Was sin really part of God’s plan, and does God really know what we will choose to do?
What do you all think about God’s will vs. free will?
Kait: Awesome! I love that you’re so willing to just get out there and say stuff, letting the chips fall where they may and willing to learn! I need to be more like that! Thanks for throwing things out on my blog. Love it!
Phil: I am so jealous. Can’t wait to see it…
Mooney: I bet you were Mr. Rutland’s favorite student. (Smirk)
Nathan: OK…I’ll start the conversation…see who jumps in. I think that we were all predestined to know Him. That was His heart…that none should perish but all would come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
But our choice supersedes that desire and is therefore left to us. The only thing stronger than God’s will in the life of the individual is our own…it’s the one thing He will relentlessly endeavor to woo, but will never manipulate.
On a similar note, I don’t think it was God’s intent for sin to be revealed originally. I think He genuinely wanted a perfect relationship with His creation and took the risk of seeing that play out by making man in His image and then releasing them on the earth.
But talk about disappointment!
I know that most Calvinists argue that God intended Adam to fall from the very beginning so that Christ could be revealed in glory. Aside from numerous other arguments, one of my beefs with is that Jesus already was very much revealed and present at the creation of Adam. The very word used for God when scripture says “let us make man in our (OUR!) image,” is broken into three distinct parts in Hebrew: El, Eloah, and Elohim referring directly to the three distinct parts of God.
So if that already wasn’t enough glory to be shown, I think God would be pretty shallow to have to want to willingly make creation fail just so He could prove a point. Doesn’t sound like a very loving God to me.
OK…everyone else…GO!
CH
hehe. Christopher, see Chapters 1-4. I’m a dad of four with number five due in early September. I love my kids and only want the best for them, better than what i have and what I am. I have never met a parent that thought otherwise of their own children. Even in the most destitute of circumstances, a woman gives her baby up for adoption so that the baby will have a better life than she feels she can provide.
Knowing this, I have to ask myself, how could our heavenly Father, who is perfect love, create a son for the purpose of damning an entire race of people? I cannot.
I do see a God who creates man to love Him of his own free will. The only way to authenticate the love is to create an alternative, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil; and also to make a way of redemption in the case of man choosing to exalt himself.
Here I can see God breathe life into Adam and tell him to live, feel his heart break when Adam turns his back, and cry the tears of a father after issuing the consequence of disobedience.
Are we better off with this sin nature, since we can now know redemption? God forbid! But praise be to God that there is the gift of repentance and the mercy of a loving Father.
“But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as.” 1 John 3:2
Diverging away from the discussion, I also saw Expelled the day after it was released. It was stimulating, interesting, understandable (for those of us who aren’t Oxford University professors), and powerful. I found myself weeping at one point, and very compelled at the end of it to encourage anyone to see the film and to support this movement of Intelligent Design within the scientific community.
Thanks for the post, Christopher!
ps. also, beautiful cinematography and the plot was intricately planned and followed.